NPR Top 100
nate1234
Posted 2011-08-06 7:51 PM (#2551)
Subject: NPR Top 100



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I didn't see a thread on it, but voting for NPR's Top-100 Science Fiction & Fantasy Titles is underway:
http://www.npr.org/2011/08/02/138894873/vote-for-top-100-science-fi...

Final list comes out "mid-August."
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htaccess
Posted 2011-08-06 8:03 PM (#2552 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Great!

However I'm not a fan of how they have included novels, trilogies and series. They may as well have added short stories and graphic novels to make it truly meaningless.

Edited by htaccess 2011-08-06 8:05 PM
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nate1234
Posted 2011-08-06 8:05 PM (#2553 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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they included gaiman's sandman and moore's watchmen. which is, yes, obnoxious.
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nate1234
Posted 2011-08-06 8:06 PM (#2554 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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my votes:

Armor, by John Steakley
The Book Of The New Sun, by Gene Wolfe
The Dune Chronicles, by Frank Herbert
A Fire Upon The Deep, by Vernor Vinge

The Hyperion Cantos, by Dan Simmons
Lord Of Light, by Roger Zelazny

The Mars Trilogy, by Kim Stanley Robinson

Neuromancer, by William Gibson

Perdido Street Station, by China Mieville

A Song Of Ice And Fire Series, by George R. R. Martin


result on August 11
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htaccess
Posted 2011-08-06 8:06 PM (#2555 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Oh wait ... they did.

"Watchmen, by Alan Moore"

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nate1234
Posted 2011-08-06 8:10 PM (#2556 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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and sandman.
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htaccess
Posted 2011-08-06 8:24 PM (#2558 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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There's plenty of single books in the list that are part of a series, whats the rationale!? The whole thing has the feel of a list thrown together from peoples comments with little thought or editorial oversite of any type. I'm pretty disappointed / annoyed with it to be honest.

That said I managed to swallow my pride and vote for:

Stations Of The Tide, by Michael Swanwick
Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson
Perdido Street Station, by China Mieville
The Man In The High Castle, by Philip K. Dick
Lord Of Light, by Roger Zelazny
The Difference Engine, by William Gibson & Bruce Sterling
The Diamond Age, by Neil Stephenson
Childhood's End, by Arthur C. Clarke
The Anubis Gates, by Tim Powers
Altered Carbon, by Richard K. Morgan

Couldn't bring myself to vote for any series (bah humbug).
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nate1234
Posted 2011-08-06 8:28 PM (#2559 - in reply to #2558)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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at least there's no harry potter...
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Administrator
Posted 2011-08-06 10:10 PM (#2561 - in reply to #2559)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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I have to say I'm really disappointed in this list.  There is so much confusion over the method and qualifications.  It seems really disorganized.  There are a few too many new books that have not stood the test of time for my tastes and they've included trilogies that are not even complete yet!  There are too many books on this list that, while entertaining reads, just don't strike me as "best of" material.

I was really looking forward to this list too.

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htaccess
Posted 2011-08-06 11:17 PM (#2562 - in reply to #2561)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Administrator - 2011-08-07 3:10 PM

I have to say I'm really disappointed in this list.


I was really looking forward to this list too.




Likewise, very amateur, it does seem popular though ... It will also be a pain to add to wwend if some of the series "win". All in all a disappointment. Surprised John Clute is willing to be associated with such a shoddy effort.

Also it quite funny to laugh at oneself in this situation. "Getting upset about an online poll of favorite SF books? You need to get out more!"
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Posted 2011-08-06 11:46 PM (#2565 - in reply to #2562)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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htaccess - 2011-08-06 11:17 PM Likewise, very amateur, it does seem popular though ... It will also be a pain to add to wwend if some of the series "win". All in all a disappointment. Surprised John Clute is willing to be associated with such a shoddy effort. Also it quite funny to laugh at oneself in this situation. "Getting upset about an online poll of favorite SF books? You need to get out more!"

Well, I'm not suicidal over it or anything but I'm certain I do need to get out more!  Perhaps the final list will be decent.

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nate1234
Posted 2011-08-12 1:15 AM (#2584 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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list is up.
http://www.npr.org/2011/08/09/139248590/top-100-science-fiction-fan...

i get the sense a lot of people who voted don't actually read much sf/f. neverwhere placed above the vorkosigan saga? perdidio st station was #98?

ugh.
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Emil
Posted 2011-08-12 5:37 AM (#2585 - in reply to #2584)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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It's not a list I will take seriously. All in all just a mishmash popularity contest. Disappointing that Clute and Wolfe (the critic) associated with this disorganized and shoddy approach. Naming it "Top 100 Science Fiction/Fantasy Novels of All Time" is quite arrogant. Sadly it says a lot about fandom. Consider this: no Butler, Delaney or Alfred Bester. Alfred Bester, friends! Dave is spot on: "There are too many books on this list that, while entertaining reads, just don't strike me as "best of" material." If they proceeded to name the list something like "Top 100 Popular SF/F Novels: Readers choice" I might have been more forgiving. For now, I'll just be very judgmental and call it "dispicable" (despite the inclusion of a good few notables and deserved classics).
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Posted 2011-08-12 8:27 AM (#2586 - in reply to #2585)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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I think Emil has it right.  The title is what's putting me off an otherwise, as it turned out, decent "fan favorite" list of books.  There are a lot of quality books in the list to be sure but the omissions are hard to ignore for a "best of" list.  I can't get behind any list that leaves out Alfred Bester and so many others but includes Shanarra, Xanth and The Thrawn Trilogy.  This list includes 4 Neil Gaiman books but only one by Philip K. Dick?  Then there is the weirdness of including series too.  It's just too un-balanced for my tastes.  On the positive side, I think we have 90% of these books in our database already so it will be an easy addition.

I much prefer the Guardian list which I think is a much better barrometer of the "best" the genre has to offer.

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jynnantonnyx
Posted 2011-08-18 1:44 PM (#2590 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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The NPR Top 100 list has been added to WWEnd:

http://www.worldswithoutend.com/lists_npr_sff.asp

Where a series is involved, we listed the first book in the series.
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Administrator
Posted 2011-08-28 12:24 PM (#2607 - in reply to #2590)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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The NPR list was a hot topic at our table at Worldcon.  Most people we talked to had the same issues as discussed above.
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Administrator
Posted 2011-09-29 1:03 PM (#2685 - in reply to #2607)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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In case you missed it, I just posted this awesome flowcart on the blog:

 

flow chart

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Darling
Posted 2011-10-03 10:05 PM (#2688 - in reply to #2685)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Between this list and discovering WWE, I've begun seriously thinking about what makes a classic SF novel. For the most part, it's difficult because not many books are old enough to survive three generations ... but this list is just what you would expect ... populist, and that's ok for what it is. At least some really good stuff is still getting attention in the bigger arena. The best (according to the kind of lists on this site) and oldest stuff in the NPR list is probably what should be getting our attention, because it is surviving.
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Posted 2011-10-03 10:39 PM (#2689 - in reply to #2688)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Darling - 2011-10-03 10:05 PM Between this list and discovering WWE, I've begun seriously thinking about what makes a classic SF novel. For the most part, it's difficult because not many books are old enough to survive three generations ... but this list is just what you would expect ... populist, and that's ok for what it is. At least some really good stuff is still getting attention in the bigger arena. The best (according to the kind of lists on this site) and oldest stuff in the NPR list is probably what should be getting our attention, because it is surviving.

First, let me say, I'm glad you discovered WWEnd and the lists!  We're having a great time introducing these lists because they give us lots to talk about.  In fact we just added our first Horror list: Horror Writers Association Reading List.

As you've already pointed out, these lists can be difficult to make if you're setting out to define the "best" in an entire genre.  Of course, that will never stop anybody from trying which is what makes these so fun.  They are a great way to express your opinions about the genre we all love whether you are declaring your personal favorite from our list of lists or making your own list.  (By the way, custom member lists are a feature we're working on...

I tend to agree with you assessment that a novel should stand the test of time, though perhaps not necessarily generations, before it should be counted in a best list.  The NPR list is too heavily a list of the new for my tastes even though I do agree with a good many selections in it.  I prefer something with a little more weight to it that's been more rigorously conceived and executed but that's just me.  I'm sure there are many fans of this list though.  I'd like to sit down and have a beer with those folks so I can tell them where they went wrong

Of course, in the end it's all about finding great books to read so the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.

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Darling
Posted 2011-10-14 11:13 AM (#2720 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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The reason I say "three generations" is because "classic" is such a loaded term. It implies longevity and weight. A book has to outlive the criticism of the generation following its publication and reach into the next one to survive. That's not to say that if it hasn't lasted that long in the general attention, that it isn't an excellent book. It might be deserving of more attention than it gets. However, I remember taking a Victorian Lit class that totally neglected Dickens ... really? Sure Ruskin is important, but no Dickens at all? I think influence that lasts for generations in the popular view is quite important. In that light, I'm always glad to see H. G. Wells, Verne, Shelley. I'm glad for more personal reasons to see 1984, Brave New World, and RUR. Those books are in the process of surviving as well as the others that already have. I loved Babel-17, and I see that Easton Press includes it in their classic SF collection, that's great. I even recommend it, but I'm not sure it has the transcendent appeal these others have.
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htaccess
Posted 2011-10-19 6:32 PM (#2727 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/10/19/2022242/flowchart-guides-re...
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ThomasBa2
Posted 2011-10-25 8:24 PM (#2760 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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I thought the NPR list was a freakin' abomination. What it contained was either false, trite or just plain drekty. All the books that make SF and Fanatasy appear to be the province of geeks, nerds and simpletons rather than a complex and challenging literature.

Edited by ThomasBa2 2011-10-25 8:25 PM
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Posted 2011-10-25 8:59 PM (#2762 - in reply to #2760)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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ThomasBa2 - 2011-10-25 8:24 PM I thought the NPR list was a freakin' abomination. What it contained was either false, trite or just plain drekty. All the books that make SF and Fanatasy appear to be the province of geeks, nerds and simpletons rather than a complex and challenging literature.

Yeah, it's not the most cogent list on the site, that's for sure.  The NPR list is the geeky little brother to the Guardian list.

I found it to be rather disappointing overall even though it does contain some great books.  It seems to be quite popular and it certainly has stirred many a conversation.

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ThomasBa2
Posted 2011-10-25 9:53 PM (#2763 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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In all honesty i think the best list is the Pringle Top 100 List. In fact I am currently on a mission to acquire all 100 books on the list. Of course I am also reading them. The other list I like is The Classics of Science Fiction list that is posted here at WWE, and The SF Mistressworks list. The Guardian List is good, but I really don't consider many of the books on it to be SF really.


Edited by ThomasBa2 2011-10-25 9:54 PM
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Darling
Posted 2011-11-02 7:30 AM (#2768 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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I too like the lists ThomasBa mentions, they are the ones I go to for a kind of last word. What I think the NPR list accomplished was revealing just how much SF has affected popular culture. I was reflecting on CSI the other night, thinking just how much SF is involved in that and other shows like it. There is no way anyone could do what these characters do without tech that is far superior to what we actually have. For example, have you seen their "enhance" features on computer images and video ... just not possible, at least not in a non-SF way of thinking. So, without admitting it up front, crime drama is resorting to SF devices to make their stories work and nobody thinks about it at all. It's a little like finding Outlander in NPR's list. No, not SF, but it wouldn't work without SF tropes and they go mostly unacknowledged. That's ok, it means sooner or later the origins of these tropes will gain wider appreciation.
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-05-29 1:49 PM (#3258 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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I love the way no one EVER approves of official lists! lol.As an abysmally out of touch and ignorant beginner,I can see why you disapprove of the NPR,too populist as someone put it,but for general readers,not up on the classics,just wanting a light fun read for the most part,it isnt all that bad.Surely odd mixing series with singletons,but I imagine all those Miles Vorkosigan fans would have cluttered up the list,filling in far too many slots.
I am just so happy to have found this site,with all these lists,which can balance each other out,or spotlight some quirky or forgotten choices.As a beginner,looking to fill in the gaps in my ignorance,I must say the Locus Top 50 is very appealing,a manageable list,lots of famous,but reasonably accessible classics.
I thought the Guardian list was a bit peculiar,odd to see the Little Prince,Gothic fiction,Harry Potter,The Road,Beloved,Alice in Wonderland,Cloud Atlas and the Chronicles of Narnia on the same list.And at least 20 books I had never even heard of.
Definitely will try to work my way through the Locus list first,and maybe in 10 years time I will be be ready for the Guardian list! :0)
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Administrator
Posted 2012-05-29 9:34 PM (#3262 - in reply to #3258)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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There is a lot of variety in these list which to me makes them more interesting.  I like looking for the books that feature on a bunch of lists and awards.  That's what the red and black numbers on the book covers are for by the way.  Somthing that scores high across such diverse lists and awards has got to have something going for it.  Besides, if I read something like Gibson's Neuromancer (5 award noms and 7 list inclusions!) it'll move all those bars on my stats page at once!  That's efficiency, folks!

You know, come to think of it that would not be a bad strategy for someone new to SF/F/H.  Read only the books with 5 or more noms or list inclusions which is pretty much the WWEnd Top Nominated Books list is all about.  That's a pretty schweet list if you ask me.

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dustydigger
Posted 2012-05-31 2:50 AM (#3267 - in reply to #3262)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Good idea Dave! I am having a great time searching the lists,looking up particular books etc.I am going to have an awesome list in the end! lol.But very long.I really like the whole reading stats section,even though it badly shows up my ignorance Another resource,really fun,is the blog collection.if I ever find time to read them
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Posted 2012-06-06 12:40 AM (#3320 - in reply to #3267)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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dustydigger - 2012-05-31 2:50 AM Another resource,really fun,is the blog collection.if I ever find time to read them

There is just so much to read these days!  I've got a good 30 blogs in my RSS feed dripping me SF/F all day long.  I suggest you pick a few that look promising and start your feed.  Much more efficient than bookmarks.

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dustydigger
Posted 2012-06-06 4:47 AM (#3327 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Er...RSS?..Feed?.Must point out here that I never touched a computer in my life till I was 60,I am pretty clueless about anything but the most basic operations,wouldnt know where to begin in making a blog,and I dont have the time anyway for anything more than a couple of posts here,as I spend most of my computer time on Shelfari.Slow but sure,maybe later! For now I have various reading challenges,I have about 100 books-crime,YA,urban fantasy,junior classics,general fiction,fantasy,historical ,still to read this year,so I have enough on my plate without blogs lol
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Emil
Posted 2012-06-06 5:15 AM (#3330 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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I googled Shelfari. I now have a new obsession. Thanks @Dusty, I think.
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-06-06 7:29 AM (#3332 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Oh no,Emil,its like a black hole,you are sucked in,and never leave lol.But if by chance you do fall in,if you want to see a REALLY formidable SF challenge,have a look at the group<< Science fiction Reading Challenge>>.presided over by PhoenixFalls.Its for the really knowledgable.Maybe after I cut my teeth on this Grand Masters challenge,and read the 100 outstanding books this year,I may dare to dip a toe.
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2012-06-06 9:37 PM (#3336 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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DD have you tried LibraryThing?
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-06-09 1:01 AM (#3351 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Well,I am a member,but I ve listed on Shelfari no less than 2863 books read (obsessive list maker? Yep,thats me.) Library Thing wanted me to pay if I listed more han 200 books,so I departed rapidly! ;0).I am in Goodreads,but only for the lists etc and to chat with a particular friend who hangs out there,but I just find the whole layout of Shelfari to be brilliant for those who like to chat about books.All the other sites could learn a lot from them in making their discussion site reader friendly .
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2012-06-09 10:55 PM (#3360 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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I don't know if it's changed but it was $25 dollars when I joined and I have nearly 5,996 listed. It is my main library catalogue and enables me to classify them every whichway. The forum threads are good, particularly for SF. Ian Sales who compiled the SF Mistressworks list is a regular there.
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-06-10 9:05 AM (#3366 - in reply to #2551)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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Hmm,might check back at the SF discussions,didnt find Goodreads very interesting really. Thanks for the info! Not that I can spare the time to look at another site,that is,now I've added this site.Do you think Dave ever has time to sleep,with all the great work he does on this site? Excellent.
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Posted 2012-06-10 11:42 AM (#3369 - in reply to #3366)
Subject: Re: NPR Top 100



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dustydigger - 2012-06-10 9:05 AM Do you think Dave ever has time to sleep,with all the great work he does on this site? Excellent.

Change "sleep" to "read" and the answer is not much time at all as evidenced by my GMRC stats   I do also give up some sleep time to do WWEnd stuff but it's certainly worth it.  As long as it stays fun, anyway!

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