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Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list
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niriop
Posted 2021-01-06 10:12 AM (#22801)
Subject: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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I wrote this article as a response to what I perceived as a terrible list published back in October: Time Magazine's ?The 100 Best Fantasy Books of All Time?.

http://www.horla.org/is-this-the-worst-fantasy-books-list-of-all-ti...

I admit I'm disappointed that it didn't get the traction I wanted, but I should have placed a link here as well besides trying to spread it through social media back in December when the piece originally published.

I would like *some* feedback though from genuine fans of fantasy fiction (and of all the literature of the fantastic): was I correct? Was I unreasonable? Am I despicable? Am I righteous? Am I a mixed bag?

Please, don't hold anything back.
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pauljames
Posted 2021-01-06 11:25 AM (#22802 - in reply to #22801)
Subject: Re: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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Location: scotland		I will read some books on the list but not many. I will read a lot of the books and authors that you listed in your article.

Reading their account of how they selected them was boring. Your article was fascinating.
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niriop
Posted 2021-01-06 1:04 PM (#22803 - in reply to #22802)
Subject: Re: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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Thanks!

The thing is, there *are* a lot of good books on the Time list, but by no means are there *enough* good books on it for it to be worth a damn.
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Weesam
Posted 2021-01-06 1:25 PM (#22804 - in reply to #22801)
Subject: Re: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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Location: New Zealand		There is a lot of books on that list I would give a hard pass to. Almost any blurb that starts with "16-year-old" I stop reading right there. There is a place for YA in my reading, but it certainly doesn't make up the bulk of it.

The list started well, but descended into 'what is most popular right now' very quickly, and reads more like a list created by some Goodreads reader than a list meant to be taken seriously. And frankly, any list of the greatest fantasy of all time that does not include Lud-in-the-Mist is a failure to me.

In serious best of fantasy lists created today I do want to see more women acknowledged, and more minorities (not just African-Americans), as well as some of the highlights from the past 20 or so years, not just a list of old-white guys with the occassonal woman thrown in. But this Time list isn't it. It's trying to go too far in the opposite direction, and thus failing in the same way those 'old white-guys' lists did.

I did enjoy your article even if I didn't agree with all your selections (you'll get no love for Howard from me). And a list of 100 can never have everyone you want on it. There are too many great books out there, something will always be missed off.

Perhaps you need to create a reading challenge for people to read books they think should have been on the list that were not.
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Engelbrecht
Posted 2021-01-06 5:15 PM (#22805 - in reply to #22801)
Subject: RE: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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Very nicely articulated piece - thanks!

For a list that is in part is celebrating diversity, it's remarkably homogeneous.  Per the "How We Chose..." intro, the list is meant to "underscore the imaginative breadth of fantasy fiction", but it feels like many of the books just rolled off the assembly line.  Again, from the "How We Chose..." intro, the "key factors" that supposedly went into the creation of the list were. "originality, ambition, artistry, critical and popular reception, and influence on the fantasy genre and literature more broadly".  However, the only one of these that really comes through is the popular reception.

If the list were presented as "The Top 100 Fantasy Works Promoting Political Awareness & Activism", that would be one thing, but "The 100 Best Fantasy Books of All Time"?  Jemison doesn't even make a nod to "best" in her intro.

I'm not just speaking from position of ignorance when I say that the list is far from being "The 100 Best Fantasy Books of All Time" - I've read both widely and deeply, including some 55 books from this list.

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Engelbrecht
Posted 2021-01-06 5:26 PM (#22806 - in reply to #22801)
Subject: RE: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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Just as a matter of interest, in connection with discussions with a friend, I created my own personal Top 100 Fantasy list a couple of months age, which I'll post below:

My rules for the list:
• An author only gets one slot, although that slot may contain a series.
• I had to have read the book (with one exception).
• A few titles are chosen more to represent the worth of the author's body of work than for the worth of that particular title.
• A lot of fantasy/horror books are excluded because they seemed to be more horror than fantasy and are deserving of a spot on a horror list.

The List:
• Homer - The Iliad (8th century BC)
• Swift, Jonathan - Gulliver's Travels (1726)
• Dickens, Charles - A Christmas Carol (1843)
• Rossetti, Christina - Goblin Market (1862)
• Carroll, Lewis - Alice's Adventures in Wonderland / Through the Looking Glass (1865)
• Haggard, H. Rider - She (1886)
• Morris, William - The Well at the World's End (1896)
• Baum, L. Frank - The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (1900)
• Chesterton, G. K. - The Man Who Was Thursday (1908)
• Grahame, Kenneth - The Wind in the Willows (1908)
• Burroughs, Edgar Rice - Tarzan series (1912)
• Hodgson, William Hope - The Night Land (1912)
• Cabell, James Branch - Jurgen (1919)
• Bramah, Ernest - Kai Lung's Golden Hours (1922)
• Eddison, E. R. - The Worm Ouroboros (1922)
• Dunsany, Lord - The King of Elfland's Daughter (1924)
• Kafka, Franz - The Castle (1926)
• Mirrlees, Hope - Lud-In-The-Mist (1926)
• Schulz, Bruno - The Street of Crocodiles (1934)
• Howard, Robert E. - Conan stories (1935 (approx))
• Smith, Clark Ashton - The Emperor of Dreams (1935 (approx))
• Bulgakov, Mikhail - The Master and Margarita (1940)
• de Saint-Exupery, Antoine - The Little Prince (1943)
• Peake, Mervyn - Titus Groan / Gormenghast (1946)
• Lewis, C. S. - Narnia series (1950)
• Richardson, Maurice - The Exploits of Engelbrecht (1950)
• O'Brien, Flann - At Swim-Two-Birds (1951)
• Anderson, Poul - The Broken Sword (1954)
• Tolkien, J.R.R. - Lord of the Rings (1954)
• Seuss, Dr. - The Cat in the Hat (1957)
• White, T. H. - The Once and Future King (1958)
• Juster, Norton - The Phantom Tollbooth (1961)
• Bradbury, Ray - Something Wicked This Way Comes (1962)
• L'Engle, Madeleine - A Wrinkle in Time (1962)
• Langton, Jane - The Diamond in the Window (1962)
• Nabokov, Vladimir - Pale Fire (1962)
• Alexander, Lloyd - Prydain series (1964)
• Beagle, Peter S. - The Last Unicorn (1968)
• Le Guin, Ursula K. - Earthsea trilogy (1968)
• Leiber, Fritz – Lankhmar series (1970)
• Marquez, Gabriel Garcia - One Hundred Years of Solitude (1970)
• Stewart, Mary - Merlin series (1970)
• Zelazny, Roger - Amber series (1970)
• Adams, Richard - Watership Down (1972)
• Carter, Angela - The Infernal Desire Machines of Doctor Hoffman (1972)
• Moorcock, Michael - Elric series (1972)
• Abe, Kobo - The Box Man (1973)
• Goldman, William - The Princess Bride (1973)
• McKillip, Patricia A. - The Forgotten Beasts of Eld (1974)
• Walton, Evangeline - Mabinogion series (1974)
• Kotzwinkle, William - Dr. Rat (1976)
• Lee, Tanith - Flat Earth series (1978)
• Calvino, Italo - If on a Winter's Night a Traveler (1979)
• Wolfe, Gene - New Sun / Long Sun / Short Sun (1980)
• Crowley, John - Little, Big (1981)
• Irwin, Robert - The Arabian Nightmare (1983)
• Vance, Jack - Lyonesse trilogy (1983)
• Jones, Diana Wynne - Archer's Goon (1984)
• Kushner, Ellen - Swordspoint (1987)
• Powers, Tim - On Stranger Tides (1987)
• Shepard, Lucius - The Scalehunter's Beautiful Daughter (1988)
• Gaiman, Neil - Sandman Series (1989)
• Kadare, Ismail - The Palace of Dreams (1990)
• Kay, Guy Gavriel - Tigana (1990)
• Robinson, Kim Stanley - A Short, Sharp Shock (1990)
• Bantock, Nick - Griffin & Sabine series (1991)
• Tepper, Sheri S. - Beauty (1991)
• Walker, Wendy - The Secret Service (1992)
• Yolen, Jane - Briar Rose (1992)
• Swanwick, Michael - The Iron Dragon's Daughter (1994)
• Hand, Elizabeth - Waking the Moon (1995)
• Hansen, Brooks - The Chess Garden (1995)
• Priest, Christopher - The Prestige (1995)
• Pullman, Philip - Dark Materials trilogy (1995)
• Spencer, William Browning - Zod Wallop (1995)
• Knight, Damon - Humpty Dumpty:  An Oval (1996)
• Martin, George R. R. - A Game of Thrones series (1996)
• Windling, Terri - The Wood Wife (1996)
• Ford, Jeffrey - The Well-Built City trilogy (1997)
• McIntyre, Vonda N. - The Moon and the Sun (1997)
• Rowling, J. K. - Harry Potter series (1997)
• Saramago, Jose - All the Names (1997)
• Borges, Jorge - Collected Fictions (1998)
• Meynard, Yves - The Book of Knights (1998)
• Snyder, Midori - The Innamorati (1998)
• Mieville, China - Perdido Street Station (2000)
• Pelevin, Victor - Babylon (Homo Zapiens) (2000)
• Link, Kelly - Stranger Things Happen (2001)
• VanderMeer, Jeff - City of Saints and Madmen (2001)
• Clarke, Susanna - Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell (2004)
• Murakami, Haruki - Kafka on the Shore (2005)
• Valente, Catherynne M. - The Orphan's Tales:  In the Night Garden (2006)
• Lanagan, Margo - Tender Morsels (2008)
• Ajvaz, Michal - The Golden Age (2010)
• Walton, Jo - Philosopher Kings trilogy (2015)
• Arden, Katherine - Winternight trilogy (2017)
• Lee, Fonda - Jade City (2017)
• Tidbeck, Karin - Jagannath (2017)
• Novik, Naomi - Spinning Silver (2018)
• Leckie, Ann - The Raven Tower (2019)

Also Considered:
• Crawford, Marion F. - Khaled (1891)
• Kipling, Rudyard - The Jungle Book (1894)
• Kubin, Alfred - The Other Side (1908)
• Buzzati, Dino - The Tartar Steppe (1940)
• Thurber, James - The Thirteen Clocks (1950)
• Wilson, Robert Anton & Shea - Illuminatus trilogy (1975)
• Silverberg, Robert - Lord Valentine's Castle (1980)
• Bradley, Marion Zimmer - The Mists of Avalon (1982)
• Carroll, Jonathan - Voice of Our Shadow (1983)
• Donaldson, Stephen R. - Thomas Covenant series (1989)
• Springer, Nancy - Larque on the Wing (1994)
• Jacobs, Harvey - American Goliath (1997)
• Krausser, Helmut - The Great Bagarozy (1997)
• Wells, Martha - The Death of the Necromancer (1998)
• Gentle, Mary - The Book of Ash (1999)
• Carey, Edward - Observatory Mansions (2000)
• Sebold, Alice - The Lovely Bones (2002)
• Park, Paul - A Princess of Roumania series (2005)
• Chiang, Ted - The Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate (2007)
• Nazarian, Vera - The Duke in His Castle (2008)
• Valtat, Jean-Christophe - Aurorarama (2010)
• Samatar, Sofia - A Stranger in Olondria (2013)
• Bujold, Lois McMaster - Penric series (2015)
• Saunders, George - Lincoln in the Bardo (2017)



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daxxh
Posted 2021-01-06 9:35 PM (#22807 - in reply to #22801)
Subject: Re: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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Location: Great Lakes, USA		How can a book published in August 2020 be a best book of all time on an October 2020 list?

Lists can never make everyone happy, but this one seems to be a list of popular and politically correct books. There are too many are Young Adult books, which are not high on my list of books to read. This list is not one that I will take seriously.
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niriop
Posted 2021-01-07 12:27 PM (#22809 - in reply to #22806)
Subject: RE: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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Thanks, I'm glad you like the piece.

Although I think your own list could use a few more 19th century works, it's *DISTANTLY* superior to the Time one, mainly because it's genuinely diverse across its sub-genres (I can see everything from "high epics" to weird fiction and literary absurdism represented) and because of its true inclusion of global literature (Calvino, Abe, Pelevin, Murakami, and of course the Holy Borges), plus a load of lesser well-known classics (I really should've put Tim Powers in my own article).
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Engelbrecht
Posted 2021-01-08 3:16 AM (#22811 - in reply to #22801)
Subject: RE: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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I assume you meant *DISTINCTLY*, at least I hope so!

Glad you liked the list.  I didn't have any conscious set of objectives in making it - just things I like.

As for 19th century works, except for works that are more horror than fantasy (a disqualifying condition for my version of the list), I'm not really sure what I might might add.  Some potential authors that I wouldn't consider for one reason or another include F. Anstey, John Kendrick Bangs, C. J. Cutcliffe Hyne, Charles Kingsley & George MacDonald - what might you add?  For that matter, have you given any thought to making your own top 100 list?  I'd be quite interested to see it!

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niriop
Posted 2021-01-09 11:16 AM (#22818 - in reply to #22811)
Subject: RE: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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I did mean "distantly", as in terms of using distance on a line runnning from say useless (the Time list) to useful (your list), but perhaps the metaphor wasn't apt enough, or confused.

I had enough confidence to critque the Time list, but other than my own short list at the end, I simply haven't read enough fantasy fiction to do something like that; there remain colossal gaps which may never be filled, given that I also read literary fiction, crime fiction, SF, horror (which is what I mostly *write* as an author anyway), plays, and whatever else that takes my fancy, or feels necessary to add to my personal canon.
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niriop
Posted 2021-01-09 11:18 AM (#22819 - in reply to #22811)
Subject: RE: Responding to the Time Best Fantasy Books list



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I've also saved your own list to a Word document for future reference
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