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Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion
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supernova
Posted 2010-05-03 2:38 PM (#1986)
Subject: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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Location: Germany		Hey guys,

I hope it is OK to ask about the content of a book. Note: This post DOES contain spoilers. If this is not OK, please remove the post. I won't mind.

A few days ago I finished reading the german version of the books Hyperion and fall of Hyperion. After having read Stephensons Baroque Cycle (in English) this was kind of a relief for a german. On the other hand, I have never been this frightened of a book before.

I was completely thrilled by the story, cared for every character (at most for Rachel and her Father) I was constantly changing my idea on what is actually happening in this glittering universe and am relieved of the somehow as-happy-as-it-gets ending.
But now, with a few days and nights past, I think I did not get the complete plot right..

I mean, obviously the Shrike was sent back in time using the time graves (as having read the german translation I am not aware of the english term for the structures of Hyperion) But by whom? I understand "them" to be a future version of humans. Seemingly united with the Ousters. Correct?

But why was the Shrike sent, why was anything sent? One would assume to change the fate of mankind. But in what way? I mean, the historic error of mankind which limited them in evolving technologically and culturally was to put themselves into total control of the Artificial (?) intelligences of the Core. For me it seems obvious that the humans of the future have understood this (they _have_ evolved) and try to push history on the "right" path.
But the guy who understood this was not related to Hyperion or the shrike or anything. Not even by the Ouster invasion. It was an AI and it was told by another AI.
I don't understand how the Pilgrims should have understood this or how the Shrike should have given the clue.

Then, I do not understand the role of Rachel/Moneta. She was doomed to age reversely in order to be -as an infant- abducted by the Shrike into the future. In the future she was raised to play a role in the past. However I don't get THE ROLE. What was her job, anyway?

What was the Job of ALL pilgrims? Were they part of the picture AT ALL?

And I did not get the point of the Ousters invading Hyperion.

What is the role of the cruciform? (The crosslike devices reviving their bearers over and over again)


Maybe the following:
The AI's plan was to use the "Ouster" Invasion (which they orchestrated) as a means to get access to billions of people in the planetary labyrinths. The fear of the Deathray would drive them there. As we learned, the AIs use human minds as "hardware". "Wetware" if you like. connecting the humans in the labyrinths to the cruciform devices would grant the AIs seemingly endless computing power.
Now, the Shrikes role would have been to terminate the wetware. (how?) and why would the shrike give the cruciform to the priest?

Why did the AIs re-build earth? Why would the future humans send a portal back in time to collect inhabitants for it? It could be assumed that AIs and humans somehow came to terms and coexist in the future. That the AIs of the future have also plotted against their past selves.

As you can see, I am very, very stuck here. Maybe I just have to read the two sequels? Or should I have understood more at this point than I have?


hope someone has mercy with me and gives a few hints...
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Administrator
Posted 2010-05-03 8:20 PM (#1996 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: RE: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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Oh my!  I read the Hyperion books years ago and I remember liking them very much at the time but I have to confess I don't remember much about them.  Your post is tickling my memory on some details but I can't remember enough to help you out.  I'm hoping someone comes along with some answers for you.  That will help jog my memory further.

I read them when they first came out all those years ago.  I'm guessing I may have to re-read them now.

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dabeef111
Posted 2010-05-10 12:09 AM (#2023 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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I cant answer your question but I can recommend to not read the two sequels. By the end they feel pointless and havent added much to the series. On the other hand, after Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion most books will look like a let down
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hihik
Posted 2010-05-10 6:31 AM (#2025 - in reply to #2023)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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i read Endymion books without reading Hyperion and found them to be quite good. for one thing, the religion introduced in those books was very believable. and i liked the story too although i don't remember most of the details, but i remember that general impression was pleasing.
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supernova
Posted 2010-05-11 12:04 PM (#2035 - in reply to #2025)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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Location: Germany		Your hint came to late, dabeef111. I ordered the book on Saturday and it arrived today.
But I decided to stick to an advice of a friend who said to pause with Simmons for a while and later revisit the Data/Megasphere (Endymion) after reading something completely different.
So I finished "Illuminatus!" and now I see 2s, 3s and 5s everywhere -I think I also begin to see some fnords...
The next "project" is Gateway by Pohl. I have a business trip to the US (Detroit, Michigan) coming up and I plan to cover some 100 pages during travel and in the hotel. (if someone has a tip on what else to do there, I might reconsider )
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nate1234
Posted 2011-08-06 8:42 PM (#2560 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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lions and tigers and bears.

endymion and rise of endymion should help answer some of your questions.
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scifigal84
Posted 2012-06-24 8:00 PM (#3475 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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Location: Glasgow, Scotland		As the fellow respondents have said, you will most probably find the answers to said questions by reading both Endymion and Rise Of Endymion as they both belong to the Hyperion Cantos. Enjoy and good luck!!
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-06-25 1:11 PM (#3482 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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Location: UK		Hi Scifigal,and welcome.Totally agree with your signature.Welcome to a Glasgow lassie from a Geordie girl! lol.I live near Sunderland.The Hyperion books are on my TBR for later in the year,I am hoping for an enjoyable read!
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-06-25 1:11 PM (#3483 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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Location: UK		Hi Scifigal,and welcome.Totally agree with your signature.Welcome to a Glasgow lassie from a Geordie girl! lol.I live near Sunderland.The Hyperion books are on my TBR for later in the year,I am hoping for an enjoyable read!
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btaylor
Posted 2012-10-17 8:28 PM (#4267 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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I for one found all 4 of the books to be very enjoyable. I understand where some might not like the sequels but I think they were great stories, even if they weren't as well written or groundbreaking as Hyperion. I thought Raul and Aenea were a fascinating love story. (I also recently discovered I live down the road from where Dan Simmons went to college)
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risbom
Posted 2012-10-19 12:22 PM (#4274 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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Location: Zagreb		Hyperion was the only book I was dreaming I was there, and waked up feeling uneasy (I don't like heavy words), although in my dream I was just watching a scene. Fall of...was not so good, but only because first half is untouchable, and nothing is so good. Terrific book.
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theman
Posted 2012-10-21 10:44 PM (#4279 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: RE: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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Location: Virginia		I just finished Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion, so I read this post, and I have to agree with supernova. There were many unanswered questions and many parts that did not make sense. I see that no one answered any of supernova's questions, too, which satisfied my opinion that many story threads were left frayed, or at least not tied off neatly. I'll try to answer some of those questions. Spoiler alert.

I don't know the purpose of the Time Tombs and the Shrike, although I remember that the Shrike collected pain on the tree to be projected throughout every corner of the galaxy, which of course is important for poetry and for... um, other stuff. The Tombs seemed to be built by the descendants of the Ousters, who had to come by Hyperion at some point. I don't know why the Ousters invaded Hyperion. I didn't even get that the Ousters arranged the invasion. I'm not doing well at answering questions, so far.

I noticed many parallels between Hyperion and various iron-age desert cults. I'm referring to the prophets, sacrifices and saviours. Many of the main characters, such as the AI and the pilgrim characters, fit roles suited for something found on some old piece of papyrus. Religions tend to be murky on logic and heavy on symbolism. The Hyperion cantos is not short on such mysticism, and I usually chalked up the unanswered questions to the establishment of a religious narrative. As such, these narratives are full of beautiful stories with ambiguous morals. All of the pilgrims represented tales rich with moral intrigue. Their purpose may be anecdotal and only serve to widen the scope of the novel to that of a religious document.

I didn't get how and why Moneta and Rachel were the same person. However, I liked how they resolved into a single person and how Rachel and Sol left for some other dimension/universe. Maybe their purpose lies in another dimension/universe and would make sense there, since it does not make sense in Hyperion.

I think I know the role of the cruciform, though. The Core used the neurons or energy of humans travelling through farcasters to store their data or power their existence. Apparently, the Core wanted a more stable form of energy/data housing, so they developed the cruciform organism in order to maintain a human population they could maintain and control more effectively. Perhaps they feared humans shutting down the farcasters or otherwise compromising their independence. The cruciform could have provided for thier needs of energy, data storage and safety from humans, much in the same way that that machines farmed humans in the Matrix cantos. Now, the Bikura (the Hyperion colony symbiosed with the cruciform) may have been the laboratory where this scenario was tested. Remember that the Bikura and the cruciform organisms lived in the opening to the labyrinth. Fast forward to the ending of Fall of Hyperion when the Core tried to convince Gladstone to move all of the humans into the labyrinths. I believe the Core's plan was to trick the humans to relocate to the interconnected labyrinth where they'd be exposed to the cruciform organisms and become the greatest server in the universe. And be slaughtered periodically by the Shrike for... um more pain. Basically, I got the same explanation as supernova for the cruciform.

I didn't think that the AIs re-built Earth. That was the initial explanation, but I thought later it was revealed that they farcasted Earth to a new location. I did not understand why they did this or what was their weird obsession with Keats. I mean, Keats? Really? Is that the pinnacle of human emotion as observed by an AI? I would think AIs more into Plato, or perhaps Asimov.

Okay, so I didn't answer any questions. In fact, I would like to thank supernova for giving me even more questions. All in all, I loved these books. Hyperion more than Fall of Hyperion. The structure of Hyperion was brave and well executed. Each pilgrim's story read as a novella, with distinct narratives that somehow felt part of a unified story. I felt horribly cheated when I found out that I wasn't going to get Het Masteen's story, but that bit of mystery and manipulation by Simmons was refreshing. In retrospect, I appreciate the creative leap Simmons took when he changed style for Fall of Hyperion. Although, telling the story through the dreams of a newly introduced first-person narrative did not work for me, even after I resigned to finish the book. I finished Fall of Hyperion through the desire to see what the hell happened to these amazing characters in this vivid universe.

If anybody wants to take a stab at supernova's questions, I'd love to read some opinions.
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nate1234
Posted 2012-10-22 12:49 AM (#4280 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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some info on the shrike:
http://hyperioncantos.wikia.com/wiki/Shrike
i'm wondering if the shrike wasn't made by the technocore's "reapers" faction but reprogrammed by the ousters in the far future somehow. i think that was the sense i got when i read THC however many years ago, but it has been however many years. and that i thought kassad fought it and was instrumental in helping the ousters reprogram it, but also became the shrike in some fashion (either as a template which the reapers used when planning the shrike, or in a more literal, raw-materials sense) but a reread would probably help.

as allusive as this series was, i'd want to read white's the once and future king before trying to comment on rachel/moneta.

i'm not sure why asimov (?) or whoever would be more emotional than keats, but keats wrote hyperion, which is probably the main reason it's him and not shakespeare or sophocles or (take your pick). i thought the technocore's supplanting the humans or the ousters ousting the technocore (or both) were meant to parallel the titanomachia.

concerning the pilgrims' reason for being there, the question is twofold. 1) what motives of their own brought them to hyperion 2) what motives of the technocore, or the lions and tigers and bears, or dan simmons, puts them there. so that's 14 answers, and you're probably better off reading through the pages on each character (7) and on each book (4) than trusting my shoddy memory.

Edited by nate1234 2012-10-22 12:52 AM
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Burjaufojad
Posted 2012-12-29 10:41 AM (#4442 - in reply to #1986)
Subject: Re: Hyperion / Fall of Hyperion



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HI,

Does somebody know the details of "Life-Pact" signed on Maui Island (Old Earth) ? It's mentioned by Consul at the end of his story (his mission on Hebron). I had just found the history of leprosy on the island with forced emigration of infected people on other, isolated island at the end of XIX century...
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